Ep. 6 with Sarah Kate of Rethinking Drinking
Kristen Rivenbark
Hey everyone, happy Monday or happy whatever day it is that you're listening. I wanted to give a quick intro because Sarah Kate and I got right into our conversation before we hit record we were super excited about the topic at hand, and I hit record, and we just continued so it's kind of abrupt in the beginning, which is a good thing we were off to a running start, but there Kate is the founder of rethinking drinking and also have some good clean fun both on Instagram at digital magazine. She has a newsletter. She is an alcohol free sommelier which I think is really cool. I know many real life IRL sommeliers who have given me the full Wine Experience but Sarah Kate is an expert at alcohol free cocktails and she's always making her own simple syrup, like from Earl Grey tea which sounds amazing. So, this is a really cool episode and I sit here having this conversation, while also rethinking my own relationship with alcohol it's something that I'm always kind of going back and forth with, as I'm sure many of you are, you know, is at the end of the day a neurotoxin and it's poison and it doesn't really do you any favors. But then, you know we're busy and productive and we get our workouts and we eat our good foods and then it's really nice sometimes to have some way to relax. But, you know, I don't always know if it's worth it so I'll leave it to you to kind of explore that on your own and I hope that you find some value in this podcast I absolutely love Sara Kate I wish she didn't live in Canada so that we can hang out, but maybe someday. So yeah, let's get into it. Let me know what you think and I'm excited for this episode. cord. Because, so we're talking about, I didn't realize that you were also in the corporate world and had that lifestyle too and it's so funny because I relate so much to that I didn't even know we had that in common. And you reminded me so much of when I worked for an asset management firm so I was around portfolio managers and all these senior levels, like older men. It was a we're out culture, it's all we did.
Sarah Kate
Take a step, take a step back from that. And this is what rethinking drinking is about. Where did women's When and why did women start drinking like cowboys? And it's because we were, we were searching for equality, we wanted equality with men, and we moved into the male driven patriarchy of the west or I shouldn't say patriarchy that's very political, but we moved into a very male driven business world, and wanted to climb the corporate ladder. We wanted to get to shatter the glass ceiling so the way we did that was to start drinking with the boys. And we adapted a drinking culture into our own ethos and ecosystem. And then you go home and you're juggling being climbing the corporate ladder in a male driven business world, and you're juggling your kids, you're juggling your household duties, you're driving kids to soccer and trying to also play like a play with the big boys so to speak. Yeah and then coping with wine because you're our drinks because you're like I you know I feel like shit because I did drink with clients last night. Am I allowed to swear on this podcast?
Kristen Rivenbark
Absolutely! no sponsors to tell me what to do.
You're drinking with the big boys and you're feeling like shit. The next day, and you've got to screw your kids around. And you've got to be mom got to be honest mom after a hard work day on over, and then you're grabbing a glass of wine again and so this is where you know you were talking about like you know you're in a boozy the boozy culture of like portfolio managers and things, that's such a male driven industry and women have been fighting for equality in the financial world and wealth management for so long and how are they, they're not doing this intentionally, but how do you how do you find that equality in the workplace, you go out for drinks you keep up with them. Annie grace, the author of this naked mind she talked a lot about that she was a VP of Marketing for a big company she was quite young when she got that promotion, And she was going out and keeping an eye she she felt that she felt the pressure to keep up. They went whenever she traveled. And, you know, I was meeting with clients, having drinks, having drinks, having drinks, and it's, I started thinking about, Well, where did women get there, How do we get to that place, it's because we were trying to fit in to a male driven business culture. And that's going to take a long time for things to shift, but that's one of the areas that we need to rethink in the workplace, setting the tone that drinking together as workers and colleagues should not be a normal thing.
Kristen Rivenbark
Yeah, and I come from a human resources perspective too. I'm an HR manager, I still am, and I really had to learn how to move away from that you know it was when I was in. And I really had to learn how to move away from that. You know it was when I was in SMM working for an asset management firm I was a human resources representative at that time. And I would take the train to New York for meetings to visit, you know, our office there and we go to Nobu and barely ate because we would just drink it was boozy lunch, and then it was like, get done the bare minimum in the office, maybe have happy hour while you're there, and then go out for drinks after it's just yeah it's so interesting that you put it that way. I never thought about it from that perspective in terms of trying to match the male culture, that's, that's really interesting that you mentioned that. The
Sarah Kate
Another thing I'm so interested in is that you're an HR manager because I've been actually trying to have conversations not not a lot but I've just started like reaching out to people in my network and talking to them. If people don't know who or HR, because there's also, I, I'm always thinking about now, inclusivity and, you know, one of the things I brag or I don't want to drink. There's a whole bunch of baggage that comes with that and when you say something like that to somebody, a co-worker. So, I start thinking about what those lads have in the workplace, there are probably a lot of people who do not drink for various reasons, and they're not included in that drinking culture, just from. It doesn't have anything to do with somebody who was alcoholic, somebody who was PRET like it could be pregnancy, it could be religious reasons. It could be personal choice, it could be whatever that is, when you create a drinking culture in a workplace, you're automatically excluding anybody who doesn't feel comfortable about our environment so whatever reason, there doesn't even you don't even need to validate that reason for any, for anyone, if somebody says, Why aren't you drinking That's none of your business. Right,
Kristen Rivenbark
It's Rachel Green smoking on Friends, remember that? I saw that episode where she would go smoke cigarettes so that she could keep up with her boss and have those conversations. Otherwise, she missed, she wasn't even a smoker, right.
Sarah Kate
That's exactly what it wasn't. I was in the casino world, and luckily, at the time, there was a lot more regulation around employees, kind of expense accounts and things like that. But you know, I'd still be stuck in a hotel in rural Ontario, you know, because one of the casinos I managed was out of rural Ontario, and I had nothing to do. And so, you know, you're, you're buying a bottle of wine at the small liquor store near your hotel, and watching a movie by yourself and there's nobody there to monitor how much you're drinking. And so you're not doing it intentionally at the beginning, you're just like yeah I have a bottle of wine, am I well while I'm I will finish it out like gases, only for glasses. Yeah. So, that is, there's a couple things there's one there's that picture of that idea of like women trying how we're forced into a square or round a square peg into a round hole when they, when they started searching for equality in the workplace, there's that. You know how we've adapted that culture to is that inclusivity Human Resources perspective of the workplace, and the three there's the, you know, the, the other things that go along with working that where you're put into situations where you're alone, where there's, you know, you know, other things at play in your life that you'd rather be home with your babies or your dog or your partner like you'd rather be home you'd rather not be in a hotel room while
Kristen Rivenbark
you're like well this is what I'm working with.
Sarah Kate
yeah, yeah, I got to have fun and, yeah, this, this is actually like, I just something just sort of tweaked or triggered in my mind like how you're creating, you know, when I'm in that hotel room in rural Ontario, trying to create a little bit of a party on my own right, just for you said like well this is what I'm working out with I gotta have a guy have some fun on my own. It's almost a release as well for likely, I don't have any responsibilities, my kids are with my hands you know they're at home with my husband being taken care of, I'm by myself. Yeah, so, however long at a party like, there's all these others. You know this isn't going very many ways but you know there's like also that bringing your vibrator brings your why, when you're when you're traveling for work right. Mama's gonna have a party, right. And that ties it to I think how you like that coping for moms like women in the workplace, like oh my god, doesn't matter if it's a night in a hotel or even if it's an afternoon your husband takes the kids to the zoo. Yeah, the pressure you're feeling like Mama's gonna have a good time. Now I'm going to crack open the wine binge on bridgerton.
Kristen Rivenbark
Exactly, exactly. I want to do a quick intro because I'm so excited. I feel like this is awesome, we've already kind of taken off and I have so many questions for you and so many different directions I want to go in but let me introduce you. Thank you so much for being here. It's a pleasure to have you on something, you know, this kind of mommy wine culture and sober curious COVID and just kind of exploring this topic, and just bringing it to the forefront and having these conversations I think is so, so important and it's important to me personally, I'm on this journey. I'm still figuring it out but I want so deeply for other people to step foot onto this path as well, just to see if something different works better for them so I was so excited when I saw you on Instagram and I was like oh my god I need to chat with her so you are an alcohol free sommelier which is, is that a real thing, that's a real thing. Oh I love it I love it. Also founding editor of rethinking drinking magazine which is really cool. You've been featured on CTV News, CTV, which I'm assuming is your Canadian channel right?
Sarah Kate
Yes!
Kristen Rivenbark
Okay, and you are a self proclaimed excitable energizer bunny. I love that. So, Welcome to the feel better podcast. I can't think of a single better way to feel better, than to limit alcohol, truly, honestly, I think that is something that is so overlooked and completely changes the way you feel the way you sleep the way you eat the way, you know, your, your mood, your emotions, your weight, everything, everything is impacted when we decide to drink or not to drink so I'm so excited to have you here and I can't wait to get back into it.
Sarah Kate
Thank you. I'm so I this is a perfect plate like this is going to be a perfect conversation because my values are so aligned with this like holistic picture of your health, that may be leaving out one really key thing, right out of our holistic health and you know, like we've kind of talked about this within, you know, kind of my network and the people that I work with their women will bill. And I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. By the way there's no judgment here that I'm not trying to make any one person feel bad for their decisions but we've been sort of trained practicing meditation for a month is good for you and that maybe cut out meat for a month. Try and try to be vegetarian or vegan given it a try for preventative health but nobody ever openly talks about how awesome this one thing is that we never talked about the other puzzle piece, the truly holistic picture for preventative wellness is taking a look at how much are you drinking like let's be frank, and it can be one or two classes a week that you're not feeling good about it could be one or two glasses a day that you're not feeling good, so there's a, there's a wide spectrum but I think that even a small amount, you know, we know that for women specifically as well as there's a lot of health risks related to that so yeah this is a great conversation.
Kristen Rivenbark
Yeah, I recently read how to quit like a woman and I felt like it answered so many questions that I didn't know I had yet and I was like, Oh my God, this makes so much sense and you know in all my own personal research and my training group, the Institute for Integrative Nutrition and just understanding how you know alcohol. Well a lot of people don't want to accept the fact that it is a toxin, it is a poison in your body that tries to reciprocate bring itself back to homeostasis and balance and that's why you feel the way that you feel, I think there's just such denial around that but reading, how to quit like a woman really just solidified everything for me, and even just the marketing aspect of it and yeah, it's really interesting and I always go back to like I cringe now when I see like, I think it's called maps and market maps and cocktails or something like that at my Pilates studio so come to Pilates and then let's have Margarita. This is no, this doesn't make any sense. And
Sarah Kate
this is, this is um I could, this could be a whole other episode of your podcast like, how is it that a wellness community has decided that detoxifying through wellness for yoga and meditation. It's okay to detoxify yourself immediately afterwards and erase all the positive benefits of stretching, finding inner peace like that. It's such a disconnect for me. And it's almost like nobody who, why am people saying Why don't people see this like why don't. But to your point about the marketing and then some good that's a good thing. Quit like a woman. Quit like a woman. She really, really dug deep into that and it's so that sort of the key to all this is we need to really rethink how we're looking at marketing, how we're looking at how marketers are talking to women. So here's an example. In Canada, we have, we have a, there's an organization called Add, add standards Canada. And so around Mother's Day I saw this chain restaurant had put out an ad. Mom deserves it, it was on Instagram and it was a bottle of wine, and then a wineglass would probably find that a five ounce pour and so that's that's fine, and that a small little salad. And I'm like, that salad, and that wine that woman likes is going to be drunk, she drinks a bottle and has a small salad like, first of all, that's not healthy balance, but also what does not deserve. What does not deserve so I would add standards, Canada, and they don't milestones was the chain, they actually responded to me directly site called about an Instagram and they said you're right, we're gonna tweak the ad and they did, but they explained it was supposed to be about the food, not just the wine it was supposed to buy food, and the wine. Yeah, I was like, okay, so they didn't send me. I asked them to send me the revised ad just to like to see it and they never didn't respond. That's okay. They're busy, their marketing department, but as a standard, I got back to me and said, Your complaint is invalid because you're a competitor, because you sell T-shirts on your website, and you're anti your anti alcohol, you're an anti alcohol advocate. And it was a woman writing this to me. And I wanted to literally like, you know, I couldn't believe it. Because we, and this is how we're all trained to not see. You see it because you've read quite like a woman. When I said like mom deserves it, you got it right away.
Kristen Rivenbark
I know mommy drinks because of you, I see that like this is why mommy drinks and a big bottle of wine.
Sarah Kate
And it's like, how do you think that kids feel? How do you think that children feel that that was eye opening, not eye opening, but when I had that thought, or when I heard that, probably on Instagram somewhere. You have to think about all the kids that are hearing that message that they're, they're so terrible that mom has to get drunk. And I guess. Yeah, there's no judgment for any woman listening to this at all. Like we're I embrace every single woman who's even considering listening to this podcast, whether you decide to have one less glass of wine or not, there's no judgement at all. This is about. This is wider. This is about a culture. Wherever we turn. We have a chain here called HomeSense so it's like we have US Marshals right. We do, yeah, yeah so it's a sister sort of marshals and as a whole, home decor. Yeah, they've got a whole section for wine purses and one part finale oh my god, mugs and cups that have like you know, loving, mommy juice like, you know, cute purses that you can have their coolers for your wine bottle you can take out.
Kristen Rivenbark
It just normalizes that it just creates more of a demand and acceptability for that to be, you know, a regular part of this mom's life and then she's like, Okay, well I am going to get that as your child and I am going to get that hard for the beach and I am going to drink this wine tonight because clearly it's acceptable I mean it's a big purchase for it you know they.
Sarah Kate
Yes, so they totally normalize it so the poor, you know, the poor woman who is, who is feeling the pinch, feeling the pressure of trying to maintain a work life balance and raising children or not or raising a dog, it doesn't matter. You don't have to have kids, but that's just my kind of my experience, and other seeing this normalize that they're like I'm really stressed, I'm going to I'm going to drink at the beach because it's normal normal normal, but then what's missing, which is something that I keep talking about as we don't normalize, how much is too much, how much is enough like we don't talk about that. Do you know that one can have white clouds for two servings and two white clouds like that for drinks? Yeah, so we don't normalize some of these basic conversations at an early age, so women can make informed decisions. Fine, if you want to have two cans of white cloth, that's your decision, maybe you haven't drank all year it's your one night out with your girlfriends and you're gonna have to cancel loincloth but you know that you're over that like, you know, the healthy limit of what you should be having. And And so, if that's when things. I'm rambling a little bit but I think that's when things start spiraling out of control for some people because they look around and they see other people drinking. Everywhere they go, not taking into account. Maybe that person hasn't drank in a month and that's they're wondering when to 50 of the week,
Kristen Rivenbark
or maybe they really regretted it the next day, and that was out of the ordinary for them, and you're just kind of looking at it as normal when it isn't normal.
Sarah Kate
Yeah, I am. I don't know if this, if you've had this experience when you were when you, you know, as you've been going through this journey, are, I realized that, you know, even though people were joking about farmers market roadies, for instance like taking your wine to the farmers market so that the other moms were all bringing your wines to farmers market like how many of these women were actually doing that. Were so I was like, this is, this is so hard for me to admit sometimes I'm like how dumb was I, but I thought everybody was doing it and really looking back, I'm like, I think I might have been only one of two, you know, of the group maybe one or two of us I got a roadie. But jokes aren't real, but when you like to drink as much as I did. It's great, it's normalized. Another reason for me to like, you know, drink away my, my annoying children. My children I'm that way they're not a boy but at the time it was like we're gonna go to the farmers market. All right, when you're voting with me this is another. Another area where it's safe for me to practice this, this kind of healthy habit. Yeah,
Kristen Rivenbark
it's interesting and I think also in a way, I think it's been the culture, but I also think that there was a level, at least for me, there was a level of. In the beginning it was a level of rebellion, like I always like to not take things to the next level but like if people are afraid to do something. I'm gonna do it, whether it's a positive thing or a negative thing like if you're afraid, well I'm not afraid. So I remember being 1011 and I saw an episode of Roseanne and Becky and Darlene and got into the liquor cabinet and they were making these hurricanes with orange juice and what I remember that episode and I thought that was. They are so cool, like these girls are so cool. Look at them doing things that other than the other tube, all those dorky little kids are afraid to do so. I continued with that for 1520 years. And then I think this shift for me was rebelling against this culture of normalcy. Oh, now I'm drinking this much as normal. Watch out for it. Good luck to the rest of it was almost like a method of rebellion, rather than harmlessly out from the kids or checking out from work, it was like look how cool I am, like, don't you want to be me, I'm like the people in the movies and I'm like, you know, and I think there's an element of that as well where you don't realize it's taken over and you're not really anymore, and you're No, and it's not to drink at brunch, lunch, dinner, four in the morning. Like it's not normal. Yeah, that was interesting, something that you had said made me think of that of the rebellious nature of it
Sarah Kate
In a way, well, that's like that, so the websites have been called I think it'd be to correct your life, rethinking drinking, and the magazine is actually called subgrid clean fun.
Kristen Rivenbark
Oh it is. Oh, sorry. Okay,
Sarah Kate
no it's that's what you're called the Instagram handle is rethinking drinking. Yes, my personal Instagram is some good fun because I didn't think I was starting a magazine, two years ago. Okay. Okay, so some good things on the cards are right on the front of a page that you used to say like the rebellious choice, empowering women to make the rebellious choice to live alcohol free. I don't know why we changed that I think we softened it a little bit, but I think I'm going to put that back like just Velious choice to do something different, and earlier, and I just want to get back to one thing that, like, just sparked join me, you said, you know, you were being rebellious when you were a teenager drinking because it was like, rebellious people like, you know, back, I'm about I'm 44 So like when I was being rebellious in the 90s, it was just like drinking women drinking and binge drinking hadn't really escalated yet. But, so I didn't drink a ton of high school at University, and then I am like I was in my early aughts. For instance, oh my god like a city, encourage this. So it was very rebellious to be like, Look at me, I'm rebellious, I'm cool, Whatever. And now everybody drinks that much. And so it is a rebellious choice to be like, nasty later on. There's something about not like stepping outside of like the rules, yes or no, and being the, I always, there's a, there's a video out there somewhere about how to create, how to start a movement, how to start a social movement and it's about, you know, one guy dancing alone with his shirt off in the field is the weirdo until a second person joins them, and then a third person and then 15 People come and all of a sudden it's, he's not so weird anymore. Yeah, right now there's only a few of us that are like weirdos dancing, filled with our shirts off. Yeah,
Kristen Rivenbark
it does , but you're right. Once 100 People join, then you've got like, you know, what's that. Yeah,
Sarah Kate
Exactly, exactly. And I think slowly. We're having a pandemic, which definitely exacerbates inequities in the world. Equity whether it's gender inequity. And so women, women, women are the brunt of the pandemic definitely here in Canada. Not sure, probably a similar situation in the US. What came from that, though, was it shone a light on how the weather was coping. And so now the tide is starting to turn, I think, like women have come out of this hard time and are saying, I don't like the way I feel about myself, something's wrong. Something needs to go. I don't want to drink it, and it maybe, maybe they haven't connected the dots on the drinking yet, maybe they're just like I'm so stressed I'm so anxious so why. And, you know, slowly but surely I think more and more women are finding out that I really didn't drink too much and now I can't, can't control it anymore like now I'm a little bit beyond again so the gray area drinking. Yeah, being able to control it. So it'll be interesting to see how our culture shifts. It's gonna take a long time, a long time but if you look back at ads, tobacco ads from the 1950s with women's women's smoking while they were pregnant like smoking, the best cigarette for the two of you. Can you imagine like some pretty
Kristen Rivenbark
insane. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah, I mean in a weird way, I think you're right that the this pandemic has has changed the way that we that we live and it's given us a chance, or a forced opportunity to slow down, which gives you a minute to reflect on the way that you feel and the things that you're doing and your habits and I hope that these conversations, like we're having. Keep some kind of interest in a way to think about things differently, like, you know, maybe you don't sleep and you have insomnia and I just can't lose the weight, but you've never once thought about maybe it's that glass of wine every night, it's interrupting your REM sleep, that's causing you to crave carbs. The next day, or whatever it happens to be and and we don't,
Sarah Kate
because we don't know we have never been educated, it's like secret information. Yeah and then you, you read it and you're like, oh well, no wonder why I can't sleep. Why did I find out about this when I was 15 Why is nobody telling
Kristen Rivenbark
anyways you don't tell anyone. This is the foundation
Sarah Kate
actually and, you know, because this is where, you know, I, I tried to figure out, sort of, with with some good things on.com Like, you know what, what do we what do people want to read and of course they all want the 100 recipes, right, and I feel like this is great I can get them in the door with the, the fun drink recipes, but also provide some of this basic rethinking drinking education, that just don't to open their eyes a little bit about how to find how to live with true ballots, yeah,
Kristen Rivenbark
yeah here's here's the fun recipe with us like that or this is so, Oh god, there's just so much I want to, I do want to give you an opportunity to kind of talk about how you got to this point, like how did you come into this information, what was the turning point for you, like why did you change your life. How has your life changed since you've moved away from alcohol?
Sarah Kate
So I would say I was, you know, I was definitely a career drinker in my 20s. I loved to drink, like, from the moment I started really loving wine like really tasting wine I love wine, I never liked beer. But, I mean it doesn't matter but so in my 20s I was kind of the usual party animal who loved going out and loved talking to people. If I could go out somewhere good I'm gonna have wine at home because, you know, because I can't go out looking at water. I had two kids in my early 30s So, you know, you quit drinking during your pregnancy and then you go right back to it. And I would say things really started to kind of go downhill after I had my second child, because that's when I started really leaning on having a glass of wine every day just to cope with some of the realities of working as a casino marketer, trying to, like, live in that world. And then, you know, being a mom being there for my kids, you know, household duties husband could be a good wife and you know, have a relationship with my husband and I would say, by my late 30s I was definitely. I knew there was a problem. I knew that I had a problem. I wasn't a blackout drinker. I was just constantly like in the evenings, drinking wine, all the time. And there were several years where I was really like, I don't, I don't like how much I'm drinking wine doesn't taste good anymore. So I switched up my wine to like more expensive wine, because I was like, I'm losing my taste for the $20 bottle I need $30 or whatever, and I really dug into like learning how to taste wine and like it's my taste buds like I maturing and here's the vacated.
Kristen Rivenbark
Yeah, you drink. You drink really good quality and expensive.
Sarah Kate
And I had a really good friend who also drank a ton, and I would love going out with her because she wasn't gonna ask herself and so we arrive and we, we've kind of commiserate and are hungover. The next morning, we, our kids are exactly the same age and so she's just a little bit older than I am and so she sort of started cutting back, which she, she started cutting back a little bit but that, but then went right back to kind of those same same level of drinking but when she did that I was starting to when she started cutting back I was like I really need to pay attention to this. And you know what seeing her with a different lens when she would act, you know, absolute crazy and like do foolish stuff I was like, oh my god I don't want it to bring it to that like she was a little bit. I'm not gonna mention it. She was probably further down the path of I was at the time of, you know, binge drinking, you know, not sure how she was getting home she wouldn't eat. Those are the types of things that scare me, I'm like I don't want to end up like that. Yeah, I had, I had to walk inside one horrifying terrifying morning where I realized that I had driven home drunk, called plaster plaster. But somehow I persuaded myself that it was okay for me to drive home and it was late. It was probably one o'clock in the morning and it was a short distance but it didn't matter. It doesn't matter, like, anything could have happened in that moment, and those like three minutes in the car. Yeah, and then the, then I had like a, I went to a Christmas party it was open bar, and that's probably one of the few times I've ever blacked out, so I probably had like maybe three days or four days of my whole life where, where I blacked out, and you know I fell asleep on the bathroom floor, not our basement, and our basement bathroom. And my husband was so mad. He's like, look, we are doing too, you know, the kids are watching you can't control yourself, like what's wrong with you. And that was a turning point, that's where I was like yeah, this is, this has got to go from there. It was a really short time period, like I tried to moderate a little bit for a few months, and that didn't work and somewhere might not work, I can't remember how somebody said you should read this naked mind. And I was like yes I'm going to read it, I love this naked mind because when you open the book she's like you don't need to stop drinking right now, but by the end of this book, you're not going to want to write, and I was like, Okay, I believed her. I was like this is great. And sure enough, by the end of the book I was like, kind of, now I see it for what it is. I did my 30 day, alcohol free program, like it was a, they asked, it's called the alcohol experiment. And it's free, it was free, I don't know if it still is but at the time it was free. And I did the work. I wrote I drew. I wrote like I went online onto the little module every day and wrote down how I'm feeling. Luckily COVID hit, so I couldn't go anywhere. There were no temptations, I could just burrow into my home, my whole life and be miserable. With no other temptations it's miserable. It's miserable when you've had a habit that borders on an addiction, I'm gonna say it. I have to say it because I think that anybody at my level, it's, it wasn't an addiction. I was a high performer, I would say I'm a high performing alcoholic but I was a high performing like, you know person with alcohol use disorder. Yeah, I hate to put labels on things, but that's how I kind of see myself because I didn't ever hit rock bottom, that doesn't matter. You don't, hitting rock bottom doesn't, doesn't mean anything. You don't need a
Kristen Rivenbark
rock bottom to where you are.
Sarah Kate
Yeah, you don't need a rock bottom, that's fine, but it happens. And so, I mean I think at the end of the day for those 30 days it was miserable. But joyful. At the same time, every day I would have a victory. I got stronger and mentally stronger and mentally stronger I'm like, Oh my God, look at me, look what I can do and like, there were some slips along the road after that 30 days probably six or seven months went by where I was like, I had an anniversary, and I had a, you know I had a glass of wine at dinner that my husband's like, let's get a bottle of wine on the way home, you know, drink too much felt like crap and I'm like, Oh, well. Oh, and on the next day. And then, you know, one or two other times where I really said that's it I'm done, like I don't drink anymore, was my daughter, on Christmas day, I had a glass of wine at dinner, I don't know why I bought a bottle of wine for Christmas and my husband doesn't like wine.
Kristen Rivenbark
Interesting.
Sarah Kate
Why did I do that, but I was like well it's for the family. Like, who's drinking it? So he had the he had a glass of wine and I had a glass of wine and my daughter was furious with me furious because it's so she's, she's just turned 13 So she was 12 and a half of the time and she's like, very articulate and she was like, this is really disappointing. I'm so mad at you. You disappointed me. You promise you're working, you're working so hard mom and look what you're doing, why are you having a glass of wine I was like,
Kristen Rivenbark
oh my god, oh my god like you're like why, why, why am I having this glass of wine, is this worth all of the work and to see the display without her. Yeah, but I snapped at her because
Sarah Kate
Of course I'm protective of it, like this happens, you get protective of your booze.
Sarah Kate
right and your habits, because it's, it's shining a light on something that you are already uncomfortable with inside you know you're not supposed to be having a glass of wine that you're trying to figure out why but you're doing it anyway, and then your 13 Year 12 and a half year old daughter is like, I'm so disappointed in you and shame. Seems like, leave me alone. I'm a grown up. I can make my own afterwards. I apologize. I'm sorry you were right, like I shouldn't have had that. So that was it. That was sort of when I said I'm kind of done I really, I don't like the way I don't like myself, when I drink, I was starting to really feel sick all the time like, just because of the amount I was drinking I was probably having at least two or three glasses of wine a night, because that's sort of normalized I was like well I'd have a glass when I got home from work because damn tired. And then when I'm making dinner having a glass of wine, and then of course like you're cleaning up the kitchen you're busy, you're making the kids lunches for the next day or whatever you're doing in the evening you're busy, and then at bedtime, I'm like, put the kids to bed. Okay, now it's time for mommy's glass of wine. Finally I can sit down, have long time I'm having a glass of wine, because we're never too didn't count
Kristen Rivenbark
right that was just to get you through
Sarah Kate
every. This is the party. This is now the party like that in another party but like that. This is a long time, right, like whoa, gets to read a chapter over time. And that I was starting to feel like at the end they're just so sick, sick and tired of feeling sick and tired and so mad at myself like why can't I control this and when I read, I read quite like a woman I read Annie grace. They just blew my mind because I've explained everything that I can overcome this, the science says so. This is so yours it isn't black and white. It's an addictive substance that when you stop taking it, your addiction goes away.
Kristen Rivenbark
Or you drink it and more you're going to want to drink it because your body is trying to regulate that. Homeostasis even intoxicated.
Sarah Kate
Yes, yes. And so that's, that was kind of like, that's my journey that's sort of where I sort of came, how it came out of the woods and instead, the clearance. You asked a second question. You know how am i How is life now how am I feeling, and I mean, I can't, I still, every, you know, everybody, are tries to articulate this but it's so difficult to articulate just how incredible it is, like, it doesn't solve all your problems if you have serious depression and anxiety, quitting drinking will help it but it's not going to make it go away. For instance, if you have other health problems, I don't, you know, drink and quitting drinking is probably a good thing if you have some serious health problems. But overall, overall I would say the joy, the true joy comes from being able to cope with life better. All the things come together in a really holistic way. All of a sudden you're sleeping better, you're less cranky, You're having you're building stronger relationships with the people around you because you're less happy because you're, you know, you haven't had enough sleep, your body starts looking better because you're drinking water, or drinking more like things that are not alcohol the toxins are coming out of your system. In a year I thought this would be I'm almost. I'm almost done, April, April 2 2020 So right at the beginning of the pandemic was when I started the 30 day program. So it's been like a year, like four or five months, and it's been, I think, you know, I think once every three months this morning, I get a reprieve, because I'm in a situation where it's a hard day or something like that, but it goes away really quickly. So there's no connection anymore there's no desire, I can make it through the Jewish holidays without, you know, my in laws drink a lot and so we were there the other night, and for Rashanna and I brought, actually I forgot Oh I forgot my bottle of really great alcohol free wine or sparkling wine. Yeah, my mother and my mother in law had peach sparkling wine for the kids and I'm like screaming for me. And I noticed around the table I'm here, this is, this is another topic, topic and I don't want to maybe go down that rabbit hole just yet, but I talk a lot about inclusive hospitality. And when you have options around the table that are non alcohol people who may not feel like drinking feel more included because then they can choose, maybe I don't. But if there's nothing else except water or wine, they'll go for the wine because they feel like it's not fun to have water. Yeah. What I noticed at this recent family get together is that usually my husband we drink a lot with people around the table, and my sister in law, usually has like a glass of wine or something and people drink a lot less, there weren't there wasn't as much like vodka being cost back and my husband was like, no, no, I'm good. I don't feel like drinking. Right. Like, he had a little bit of kosher wine for the blessing and like, that was it. And my brother in law, and a family friend had one shot, and then they were like yeah that's good, we're good. And I have to wonder, is it because I've set the tone? It's not all about me but like I like no no thanks I'm gonna have to teach Berkeley one that's great.
Kristen Rivenbark
You've given them the ability to do something differently as well.
Sarah Kate
Yes. So, lead the field, like lead the field if you know you're like being rebellious, choosing to make that choice, you create. You're being a leader and creating opportunity for other people to also live in balance, you're, you're the, you're the first one with your shirt off. Yeah, for other people to dance on the field with their shirt off. Anybody jumping into the podcast right at this moment, everyone. That's, that is, like, truly the joy in this is that, you know, I'm feeling awesome I'm feeling great, I'm feeling healthy I'm, you know, I didn't so much sugar when I first started, first went down this path by the way, yeah, I gained so much weight because I was like I'm just focusing on one thing. Yeah, I'm just gonna focus on one thing I'm not gonna let anything else distract me. I'm not gonna try and like, go, go to the gym right away and start like, you know, buying gold things. Not that there's anything wrong with that but I was just like, I knew my tendency was in life, to like to overdo everything. Yeah, and I'm like, I think this time I'm just gonna do this one thing for myself and gained a ton of weight, ate like honestly like bags of top covered almonds, every day,
Kristen Rivenbark
Your body was craving that sugar. I think that Hogans. I think a lot of times when people reduce their alcohol consumption their body's like whoa, where does that sugar go? I was like, you know the sweet things that you wouldn't normally eat. That's okay. Yeah,
Sarah Kate
totally. i Since then I've kind of I've gone back to all like healthier balanced, like I don't, I don't really care about the number on the scale but I much healthier now like I'm choosing a lot more, you know, actually I'm not practicing Intuitive Eating just yet the way that, like our friend Rachel Melinda would do it, but I'm starting to think more along those lines of like what do I need right now. What does my body need, what, what is going to be okay and healthy. Yeah right, you know, and not like judging, eating chocolate covered almonds. Yeah, that's been really helpful to like just this overall sense of, like, happiness and joy is like, understanding that there's balance in everything we do. And that includes eating drinking exercise relationships even, you know, the way that you approach relationships. So, yeah, yeah.
Kristen Rivenbark
Yeah and you know what you need in that moment like you were saying like what do I, Right now, I think at that point in time, you need to talk with covered omens because that's how you were going to stop drinking. And this is a journey. It's a long road it's your life, it's not just this period of time it's not these 30 days, it's life for the long haul for every day that you're here so if for 30 days or 60 days or whatever it is, those chocolate omens are getting you past the point of needing or wanting to drink, then you, you, you know, you get to a place where then you start to kind of look at, you're no longer so focused on not drinking, you can now focus on the foods that you're eating and the relationships and the quality of the conversations and. And I think, one step at a time. Yeah, in anything, whether it's learning how to eat intuitively or losing weight or cutting back on alcohol like it's so important to not overwhelm yourself to the point that you just give up on all of it, and you, you know, put yourself in a position where you are now looking to cope with all the changes you're trying to make with the habit
Sarah Kate
to avoid. Yeah, yes, yes. And I was just thinking that like healthy habits, you know, healthy habits, take reinforcement. So, starting a 30 doing a 30 day program is great, but it's not going to it's not the end of it actually the 30 day program, what I've told some people reached out to me as if you can't, if you don't think you could right now like, just go completely alcohol free you're not interested in that for 30 days and then to practice mindful drinking for 30 days, practice like cutting back, one, one glass here and there because this is about the rest of your life. Yeah, and it takes effort to get to your goals of being happy and healthy. It takes effort, and you can't give up. You have to figure out what works for you and put in the effort and so if you want to be healthy and healthier and happier and you know that you're not really happy with how much you're drinking. Start. Start with something that is like a small goal, but put in the effort, create small goals for yourself, like, You know this month I'm going to practice 30 days of mindful drinking, you know, or this year, the first week of every month I'm not going to drink, and I'm going to reset my system. Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to you know so if this isn't about, you know, I've never, I've never liked the idea of like cold turkey. I'm quitting drinking right away. I'm sick of myself. I hate myself. I'm quitting. That's it. I've done that I lasted like four days,
Kristen Rivenbark
until you start to feel better and then you're like, probably. Yeah, then you forget.
Sarah Kate
You forget right until you start reading the books and still until you start educating yourself and reading the books you understand why you do that and you're like, oh, here I am at the four day mark well I'm going to be stronger than my whatever is happening in my brain, I'm going to make it through to the fifth day, to the sixth day, and then once you get past 10 days you've kind of made it over that hump a bit. But yeah, so I was gonna say that it's it really is the practicing, whatever your goal is, every day that I can't add that the 30 day mark like dry January, I like the idea of these months but I wish people would try keep going like once they take what they've learned from from dry January and apply it to February and March, and approach it as like, I'm not feeling great about myself, I want to put some effort into this area, doing the dry January and then like really like, Okay, what am I learned from this How am I feeling. Can I start to keep practicing some of this in my life, but we tend to like dry January done.
Kristen Rivenbark
It's almost like dry January, it's just getting you. You're just restricting until you get to a place where you can have all the drinks that you want, it's like, you know, a restrictive diet where you're like, I'm not going to have my favorite dessert for two weeks until I get back from vacation and then you're going to binge on that favorite dessert so it's like, what's the intention behind dry January is that to really take a look at how you feel when you remove that or is that just to boost your ego and show yourself that you can do it until you then get to do it, you know, juggle, or, you know, kind of binge on it later so I think, I think I think sometimes people are just afraid to see how they'll feel it's almost like you know you're saying it doesn't. You don't have to do anything to such an extreme that you say I'll never do this again or I'm a non drinker now as of today, just experimenting, the other direction just experimenting and trying it just see how you feel if you don't feel great, try it because you might feel better. You might not and you might continue the way you know you're the same habits and that's fine, but you may feel better, and that's okay and I think sometimes people are so afraid that if they toe that line or, you know, dip a toe in, they won't be able to come back and they're not ready to give that up and you can do whatever you want. So,
Sarah Kate
yeah, yeah, you got the rules, you make the rules, but you put in the effort. Yeah, it's up to you to set your goals, and figuring out what works for you and putting in the effort. Yeah, I think this is the one thing that I've actually learned learned from all of this is that I never truly, I run half marathons and been successful at them, but I've never been successful at like weightlifting, to get healthy and that kind of thing because there's no end goal, right. So what I've learned from. You have to have a goal to put in the effort. I mean, having even a 30 day, or a one week goal, gives you a goal to work for and then you know where to put the effort. And you can then assess afterwards like having I feel running out half marathon, for instance, or how did I feel on that one week. And you can see the reward of your efforts. Yeah, within that goal. So I think goals or goals and effort are super important as like is like, you've got to put in the work. And you can't just do it half assed and not half assed. The goal has to be something manageable for you, and then make your own rules, that that goal is and how that works, but you gotta put in the effort you can't say I'm going to quit drinking, and then not dry. Right,
Kristen Rivenbark
right, exactly. It's like manifesting you can't just wish for something and the universe drops in your lap, you have to still take the steps to get to that manifestation, you know, you put it out there, toward that it doesn't just come to you.
Sarah Kate
I manifested that I was going to be on your podcast and I got on your podcast.
Kristen Rivenbark
And it's so funny I had just listened to the manifestation to be magnetic with Lacey phyllodes And then I found you and I'm like, Oh my God, yes crazy. I've been labor on
Sarah Kate
this vibration, yeah, yeah same vibration.
Kristen Rivenbark
I mean, that's something else to you we're talking about how you feel better and how everything changes when you kind of remove alcohol from your life. And I, I feel, and this sounds like woo woo but it's so true. I feel like I vibrate at a higher frequency. So when I have dreams, even if it's now, you know I used to binge drink. I blacked out every time I drank like I was that person. But, I still do drink and I want to get to a place where I don't anymore and there have been three month periods two weeks like it's a lot less than it used to be and I'm happy with that. Especially considering what it used to look like, but I'm definitely on that journey to just eliminating it because now I know. I feel the difference, I see the difference and I vibrate on a much lower frequency, even if I've had two glasses of wine, you know, once a week or something like that. My energy's different, my communications are different , the effort I put into my business is different, the way that I interact with my kid is a little bit different, the foods that I eat and what I kind of want to eat, even though I'm not hung over. I'm my energy's different and
Sarah Kate
100% It's not at all. It's not weird at all if I 100 I 100% believe and that operating at a high, high vibration, and you're, you're the frequency you're on at it you know you can do so much when you were when you were working from your highest self in that in that high vibration. You can get so much done, and it's, as soon as your brain starts to get fogged by something that's not natural for it. Even sugar sometimes makes me go bonkers. With my vibration, and it affects too so I really truly believe too that if vibration is impacted by how you are.
Oh, leaving other people with a feeling of an increase in themselves, and that vibration comes back to you right so that their vibration goes up and then you get that vibration back and it's like it's like magic. But when, when you are when you can't show up with it, like, operating from your highest self, then you are, you're not leaving somebody with a feeling of increase you're not feeling like leaving them with a feeling of, Wow, you've they've, they've benefited from being around yeah, they're operating them from but you're lowering your frequency they've lowered their frequency, and it's like, until you get back. And this is something I've learned in the last year and a half so I didn't know any of us before, because I don't have I never had the time to understand these things. And then, you know, opening up all these doors to self development and understanding myself and let me tell you. This has also been a journey of peeling back the layers. You have to be willing to not only do the work and put in the effort, physically, not drink, you know, work on not drinking work on strategies. You also have to do the work internally. And so I peel back a ton of layers of the onion, nowhere near the center, yes. Yeah. But part of that was learning about and really understanding like sort of the manifestation or vibration and like the universe. It's been so interesting and, yeah, probably a year ago would have been like that's Whoo, right. I actually really believe it works exceptionally now, like, you know things are coming together for myself and my family have little in little ways that I'm just like, oh look at that that was the universe, everything's always working out for me.
Kristen Rivenbark
Yeah, it's magical, and the more you lean into that the more it happens for you, you know, it's almost like when you just kind of lift that curtain. It's like you're limitless, I feel limitless, when I'm not kind of damp down by something like alcohol, like I feel like I can do. I can achieve anything. I'm on my way, things are happening in the universe, working in my favor. Like I feel that so so much. When I don't have any interference.
Sarah Kate
Yeah, and you get mental and physical time back, you actually have mental and physical time back because that time that you would have spent, being in a bit of a fog. And that's not always true right because sometimes you're with your girlfriends, and you're really enjoying that time. For me it was like when I was drinking three glasses of wine a night because I was just trying to cope with life. Yeah, there's a lot of times, and when am I getting where am I picking up a bottle of wine. How can I don't know? I don't drink this wine and just sit like a lump in front of the TV. Yeah, and now like now I'm like, I'm taking over the universe. Yeah, growing, growing and global movements like, yeah, two years ago that was in the cards but yeah you're right, you feel like you can you feel like you can do anything, you're invincible, you're not actually invincible but like you. It's this feeling of just, you can get up, you know that you're going to get up in the morning and have 100% effort, or like energy and effort, even on your bad days, your bad days are better than those days.
Kristen Rivenbark
Yes, that is so, so true. It's so true, that's such a good point. That's funny you said that because there were are definitely things I did in my high school and college years where I made that choice also I was like you know what I like just feel normal, which isn't like exciting and fun but it's normal than feel as bad as I do, when other things are like leaving my body. The same goes for alcohol it's like feeling normal and feeling like yourself is so much better than feeling hungover and as we get older, being the lover is like a three day affair, so if you do that, like, how many days of the month, are you wasting
Sarah Kate
food that is very true actually the older you get, I do know like so I don't I think I said this earlier but I'm 44 And so I have found that now when I get together with friends. Nobody, people are hardly drinking anymore at this age, you know people are still drinkers but you know I went to my friend's backyard last Friday, just, it was a 551. And I think that she had like four or five bottles of wine there for us to drink and I brought my own alcohol free car charger champagne. And I think only one bottle. The whole night, God drank and liked one cooler, like one. Yeah, you know, because we're also so busy talking and like being present with each other. So orient that is not that was not what I meant to say here, what I meant to say is that we're all, everybody was talking about how long it takes them to recover from drinking now because it was a conversation . I like to listen to us, we're talking about our lives. You know how old we are, like, covering for hangovers, but it's true and, you know, many women have made that work so I can't have two glasses of wine anymore I don't feel good. You know, it's, as we get older our metabolisms change and this is when I come in and I say, preventative wellness preventative health don't have that glass of wine. Yeah at all and
Kristen Rivenbark
you don't have to recover from it. Yeah. Do another
Sarah Kate
glass of wine, and really try and understand why you're having a glass of wine if you are feeling like there's no point. If it's just gonna make you feel crummy, especially now as we're as we're aging and, you know, things happen to women's bodies late 40s, early 50s Right. You start to realize at my age that you're not young forever.
Kristen Rivenbark
I know my husband is, he's 46, I'm 39 I'll be 40 this year but he's 46 and he's always like, like he can't have two beers, he used to tour and then like he did the whole rock star thing where you expect them all the time. I don't think he was because he's always been, you know, not really on that bandwagon but definitely live that live right now he's like, I can't I can't do I can't do two Bud Lights and I'm but, but live it's like water, and he's like Kristen is different, like, you'll see when you're 46 And I'm like, Yeah, I just like Leymah, I'm just kidding. No, I think it's great. I love that he is not like everyone in my life has always been like a drinking partner and he's not and I think that's why we're so solid and it's been, it's great. I love that he's not that person. But yeah, it's funny even now if I have like a glass of wine or two like well I'm not 100% That's interesting. But you, you made me think of something like sitting around with your girlfriends and having fun and I think, one, one point is, if you can't have great conversation with someone without alcohol, you should probably reevaluate your friendships, like, are you spending your time with me spending your time with them. Yeah, and two, have you ever read the book The Art of gathering. No, it's been recommended to me, I haven't read it yet either but it's on my list I feel like it's really important, this conversation, because it focuses around like when you go to a birthday party sit near the person whose birthday it is when you go to a dinner party like make sure you go and you see the host, you have a conversation with them and to remember why you're at a baby shower or an anniversary dinner or a wedding, because all those events can be seen as like just an opportunity to get drunk or to have free drinks or whatever it happens to be, when in reality like that's not the purpose of the gathering at all. So I thought that was an interesting I need to read that book, a friend of mine had recommended it and I wasn't sure if you haven't read it yet, no and that I think I'm
Sarah Kate
going to read it and review it because, because part of this conversation is about how over the last 20 years, all of our relationships have revolved around, and how good are those, all of them, like, even if you realize it or not, that we have forgotten how to have conversations with people, you know, another girlfriend of mine, she said that she and her girlfriends got together and they decided they weren't gonna drink they were just gonna hang out, and it was really, really hard. Yeah, it was hard for them to do that and that, that was like painful to hear because, but that was that lightbulb where I realized, we have forgotten how to be friends. We've forgotten how to be present for the people in our lives. As a whole, as a culture, we've, we've forgotten how to gather. So the art of gathering, it sounds like an incredible book because that's, that's such a valid point, go sit next to the woman who's having the baby. I talked to her, don't stand around the mamasezz table. Right. Why do you and why do they have sorry this is not no judgement for anyone listening. Why is there always so much booze or baby showers? One of them is that the main person can't even drink.
Kristen Rivenbark
I know, I always think about like the first birthday party to, you always have like, what tons of beer alcohol shots first birthday parties or like the parents like Go Wild in the afternoon on a Saturday and I've been there done that plenty of times, that's the only way I was going first birthday party, but like, Wow, that's pretty messed up, you know, when you actually
Sarah Kate
think about it, again, no judgment, no judgment but no judgment at all. I actually just on a sidebar I was out running or riding my bike the other day and so it was the weekend, and I ran through the park, and there was a picnic table covered and people want a one balloon and a bunch of root bags and mom standing around with plastic cups and I was like there otherwise. But I thought about it and I was like, my mom never had a first birthday party for myself, or my two sisters. Yeah, I don't even think we had a second, like I mean, we had cake at home and we have like maybe my grandparents, kissed us on the forehead but like, yeah, this goes hand in hand it's it's all tied together and I'm not gonna blame alcohol for everything but it's, you know, It is, it has become another reason to gather and drink, and a first birthday of second birthday, and that's just an example we've created scenarios. Yeah, like drinking on the sidelines of your kids soccer game. It used to be like, if any, when I was playing soccer, there's no parents to do that. And now, when your kids play, games have become a reason for parents to congregate and have their stuff to drink on the sidelines. So the conversation has shifted about parenting and provision of joy for our children. There were times when I would not even be watching my kids soccer game or swimming or swimming. It's different for me. It's different to early in the morning for groups, you know, soccer games and soccer. You know, so back to the first birthday party, there's no judgement for those women, they're having a good time but I'm like, where are we gotten to as a culture, that is this, this is an excuse, just to it's just it's not the baby doesn't know.
Kristen Rivenbark
Right, it's not about the baby at all.
Sarah Kate
There's a lot of bags hitting my head. I'm like, back to Rachel , my daughter, Rachel. We just had people over to our house but I didn't. It was like there was lots of drinks, lots of drinks and like you know balloons and stuff like that so it's become a new, it hasn't become a new rite of passage for the baby, or the, or is it a rite of passage for the parents back into like our kids one now we can get back to like partying again. Maybe, yeah.
Kristen Rivenbark
Yeah, I know it's interesting and it's something I struggle with like part of me it's like, oh, God, this year it's a birthday I don't have to work that's not working today, I've got all my family on Zoom, and I've got this cute little baby and he's so happy that his birthday like let's have some champagne who cares if it's 11 in the morning. Not like I have to remember like, that's not how it should be, I don't want to say that it's not normal, because it actually is normal, it is normal, that's what people do, but it doesn't have to be my normal.
Sarah Kate
Yeah. Yeah. So also, we haven't talked about this area yet, we could, you know, this could be another rabbit hole so maybe stay away from it totally but the, that's when I say, have the champagne, but have alcohol free champagne. Yeah because you're still elevating your own experience, really elevating there it's an elevated option. So instead of saying, I'm not going to drink water. I mean, if it's 11am, make yourself a fancy coffee. Yeah, so there's lots of, there's lots of alcohol free spirits out there now that are of excellent quality that are like espresso espresso look your ammirato Look here, you know, make yourself a really fancy, fancy coffee or have an alcohol free champagne. Today I just did a photo shoot today from the magazine. And I was thinking about Earl Grey tea and bubbles and bubbles put together. So I've done some research that's like, you know, sort of riff on a couple of different recipes that made a girl Grace syrup. Alrighty, so a little bit, this isn't that complicated but it's a little bit more fancy than, you know, Yes, people would want to go to but I made some blueberry syrup, and over a tea as well, and I mixed, you know, a tablespoon of syrup some Earl Grey half a cup of Earl Grey tea, and then I filled up the rest of the cup with alcohol free best alcohol free champagne, and it was delightful. It was a delight.
Kristen Rivenbark
That's right.
Sarah Kate
So that's why, that's the next phase of this or the next phase that's the next 100 pieces like you don't have to miss out on that feeling of being sellable celebratory, you can have an elevated experience without the alcohol and be present but feel like you are experiencing something fun and grown up like it's not a tonic water or a swirl soda, like, you know, Pepsi or, you know, or just plain water. The world of there now when alcohol free spirits and beer and wine and sparkling wine is just, it's exploding. There are so many good products that there isn't any good reason in my mind anymore and this is, this is my opinion, no judgement again but like, there really isn't any reason why somebody couldn't have a great drink that is alcohol free at any events at any place. There's no reason why movie theaters shouldn't be carrying great alcohol free beer. There's no reason why bowling alleys shouldn't be carrying alcohol free drinks. Yeah, and why people shouldn't be stocking up their own houses with it, so that they can have actions when they maybe don't feel like drinking.
Kristen Rivenbark
Yeah. And I think the more that we, you know what, the more that the, the demand is there, the more they will like these new like we have can you forex and we have C live and we have a lot of new alcohol free spirits but that didn't exist, four or five years ago, so the fact that these companies are now creating these, these cocktails, you know, and then there's another company that's competing with them and then there's the there's a market for this and all of a sudden you start having these products, I think, then, you know, companies follow the money right so, I think, then, moving there we'll start to have, yeah an alcohol free, whatever it happens to be yeah I think the more that we we demand, the more that there's a command for that wellness culture continues to permeate I think that we'll see a little bit more of what's your favorite cocktail to make at home, like, in terms of simplicity, so somebody wanted to put something together after work, they're kind of new to this with something satisfying, but simple, that they could put together to get kind of that same like adult elevated feeling at the end of, like,
Sarah Kate
Okay, so one, my go to recently like the letters kind of getting cooler here as I love. There's a line of alcohol free spirits called Wires Lyre in the US and Canada, they have an American malt whiskey. So I've been having whiskey and Cokes.
Kristen Rivenbark
Oh my goodness,
Sarah Kate
alcohol free. Incredible. It's exceptional, it is an exceptional product. There's also free spirits which are from California. Okay, and they have a bourbon. So if you want to drink bourbon and coke, you can do that, but I'd say, Yeah, liars American malt is so good. They also carry. Okay, So I'm gonna give you my second, my second kind of go to, not everybody's gonna like it when it's like it's our three, so that means like the American life the Lars American Waltz is one. There's also. Most people have heard of alcohol spirits. Yeah,
Kristen Rivenbark
That's very popular, especially this summer. Yeah,
Sarah Kate
so Myers makes some really great old Italian. Italian spirits, I think it's called. There's other, there's other brands out there that make sort of like an orange better. I know probably orange better, that there was like, there are Italian brands that specifically make a pair of T bows that are non alcoholic, because that's what that's what, like, you know, it's sort of more normalized there to have the sort of alcohol free party both, you can mix that so any of those sort of bitter orange syrups, with alcohol free champagne, and you've got like you've got a pretty darn good spritz. Wow. And that, that is more of a summary drink. Yeah, for sure. But that's two ingredients, super simple. Then 200 The American malt and coke is like. It's two ingredients and then the third one, not everybody is gonna like this because I'm really specific about taste sometimes but I really loved, white wine, like that when I say like cool climate Chardonnay is we're like, and I have searched far and wide for good alcohol free white wine, it's hard to find, especially in Canada we don't have access to the same brands as the US does, so I'm sure there's ones out there, people are going to type into like write comments on this podcast. We haven't forgotten about this one just because it's not available in Canada. But what I do is I take them. I have found that white, or alcohol free white the provost, there's a couple of different lines, and not to keep talking about liars. They have a line of it, but their roots are Oh OTS from Greece. They both liars and groups, both have like, like a white vermouth. Type, Product alcohol free. And I mixed that with tonic water with a diet tonic water because I don't like how I talk about a super sweet. So I had to do low sugar tonic water or diet tonic water.
Kristen Rivenbark
Okay. All right. For anyone to lift. Put it in the show notes so we can
Sarah Kate
Also, I was gonna say to myself, maybe I'll do a little page on some good clean fun with those three records, and you can get there. Yeah, yeah on some good team, one, two, there is a list of Sarah's top five. What are my go to products, because I'm limited to Canadian things right now. It is more skewed than Canadian, but you can get some of the products in the US, and you know you can also like, You know you want to get a good gym you want to get a good America. You want to get a good like apparently like orange better mature like alcohol free liquor because you can mix that in a whole bunch of things, yeah I have, I have that too and I really like to provide my salmon alcohol free. So yeah, this is what I do. I try every single product under the sun and I try to recommend what I think is best in that situation. Yeah, you're on your budget level so if somebody comes and says I'm doing a bridal shower but I've only got 50 bucks, I'm gonna say, go to the grocery store and get the lower end on alcohol free wine, but throw lots of fruit in it and let it soak overnight, and no one's ever the wiser.
Sarah Kate
So there's lots of different like ways to, you know, depending on the scale of your events and your budget stuff but there, there was that those are my three kind of the the three drinks are the American multiple, the, the spreads and my Italian like are my, my removed vermouth and tonic.
Kristen Rivenbark
I want to try all of these now like I'm like oh these awesome, good, like things I wouldn't even drink, the alcoholic version but they just sound so good like I want that that sounds delicious and tasty and now I want to try it and I love that you do the research for us and kind of, you know, compile all these recipes together, that's so cool.
Sarah Kate
I love that it's so much fun and I wasn't, I know, my final note of this I think is like I wasn't a cocktail drinker per se, before that down this road it was so easy to open a bottle of wine. Right. Or I would go to a bar and I would get a cocktail and I'd be finished in 30 seconds because of a small amount of liquid, and then I would get another one and another one. Really, I was just thirsty, I shouldn't just be drinking water. You know what I mean, I think about it and I'm like damn I got water in those small cocktails, but I think the reason why I do what I do now is to, I'm, I'm, I search for easy.
Sarah Kate
recipes that a busy woman can throw together quickly when their kids are having a tantrum, and they just need five minutes to write, you just need something in a glass to hold and sit and it's not even what's in the glass, it's sitting on a couch for five minutes with something in your hand, and the actual like imbibing out you know what in your body, and the feeling your body gets from like relaxing and ingesting some liquid, you know is so healing, in that moment, and you're also drinking something that's elevated. Yeah, they're not sitting on the couch with water,
Kristen Rivenbark
like special Yeah, yeah it's like Mom
Sarah Kate
taught mommy Thai and and it, it helps, it helps if you have something, if I can enable women to make it easy. Make it easy. Don't overcomplicate things, if you don't want to make Earl Grey syrup, don't do it, right, because I was obsessed with tasting Earl Grey syrup or with champagne. Yeah,
Kristen Rivenbark
I'm thinking like a rosemary, like a rosemary, oh syrup of some sort. I'm going to have to message you separately to figure out what we can like to mix with the herbs that I'm growing because that sounds really exciting too.
Sarah Kate
Yes, the raspberry you can make a beautiful residence or if I have a book here with a raspberry suppressed I swear Rosemary syrup recipe, having to have to look up so you can do lots with that and yeah there's tons and tons of different like if you're so anybody listening to this who is really interested in cooking, and passionate about food. This is a really interesting space to get into because you can bring in this knowledge of cooking and some drinks, you know, in these books that are written more for bartenders and mixologists. Sometimes it takes you a whole weekend to make the ingredients for a couple of drinks. Yeah, depending on how because or you can, if you're really interested in cooking and the culinary world you can really get into making alcohol free drinks because it's a totally different world.
Kristen Rivenbark
Get creative. It's that creativity to have that outlet to focus on that primary food. Yeah. That's awesome. Where can everyone find you, I want to make sure we get it right, so everyone find you, your magazine your page any resources please share the wealth so that we can keep this conversation going
Sarah Kate
So we're at somegoodcleanfun.com. So you'll find all of our articles there and we send out a newsletter every Friday with a drink of the week. So this week's drink is called Hollywood and Vine because it's a film festival here in Toronto and I made it. I made a drink for the Oscars back in the spring.
Kristen Rivenbark
I used to live right by Hollywood and Vine.
Sarah Kate
Okay, so I'll have to send you to watch it, you'll have to, you know, get it. It's a little bit complicated, it's not easy it's not that easy but it's you know it's it's delicious so but I do a drink of the week and, you know, then you know it's just a recap on the article so you can sign up for that, um, I just want instagram i There's on my personal account is @somegoodcleanfun and I talked about more about my journey and advocating for, you know, not normalized I guess normalizing not drinking and sort of the alcohol free lifestyle and then rethinking drinking is the is the page for the magazine. I know it's a little complicated.
Kristen Rivenbark
it makes me put that in the show notes as well so that if anyone missed it or was confused, we've got it. I love this, this is this was such a great conversation that came at the perfect time I think that, especially now going into the holidays to like your resources are so needed for anyone who's kind of like teetering on that, you know, experimental line and like well I don't know what I would do around the holidays like I'm sure you're going to have resources and suggestions and stuff. Yeah, as we get closer to the holidays to lots of drinks.
Sarah Kate
Yeah, it's a lot like, actually, the around like getting closer to, you know, Christmas and American Thanksgiving, we have a whole bunch of like things planned for, like, various events that are very specific to like if you're having hosting or hosting a work party, or here, it can go if you're going to somebody's Christmas party here's where you can break for yourself and usually break for the host. So yeah, we're gonna have lots of resources and like drinks and like some, you know, advice and suggestions for getting through some of these. Sometimes it's difficult during the holidays. A lot of times it's difficult.
Kristen Rivenbark
Yeah, that's amazing. That's gonna be so helpful. I know I'm gonna be checking it out.
Thank you, thank you so much. I hope I didn't keep you too long. I realized that we're 30 minutes past or keep going for like another two hours if we had time.
Sarah Kate
Thank you for having me today. This was really great, really a great conversation, and it's just a privilege to be able to share with your audience, you know and hopefully hopefully it's been inspiring in some ways, even one woman out there drinks one less glass of wine I've done my job
Kristen Rivenbark
so much value, thank you so much I love this, we'll have to do this again. I feel like there's still so much to cover. Yeah, I'll talk to you soon!
